Perbincangan:Hawari

This is totally erroneous. First of all it does not mean Apostles it means Disciples, the original number was 72 (Lukeman chapter 10:1) and the descendants of those families today are more than 144,000! This censorship is a travesty. See this article for more accurate history on the Hawariyun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanaya 81.103.121.144 12:44, 6 Mac 2011 (UTC)

I presume you don't understand Malay, because after reading the article, it's clear that the interwiki links are wrong. The article is about "the Twelve", hence 12 in the lead. I've rectified this, though I don't know whether this will be corrected in other wikis. ...Aurora... (b) 03:00, 7 Mac 2011 (UTC)

I can see the article is clearly about the 12 apostles not the 72 Hawariyun (disciples) so that is why I keep on correcting it. If you mean apostles then you need to change the name of the article. Apostle is Rasool. God bless. 81.103.121.144 14:04, 7 Mac 2011 (UTC)

If you can see that, why are you changing 12 to 72 in the lead? I'm not going to argue whether the twelve are called "apostles" or "disciples", in Malay, they are called Hawari. ...Aurora... (b) 14:15, 8 Mac 2011 (UTC)

One more thing, in this context, rasul/rasool in Malay would refer to Isa/Jesus himself, not his followers. ...Aurora... (b) 14:17, 8 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Don't give me that "in malay it's called..." that is just an excuse for giving the wrong title to an article about the 12 Apostles rather than about the 72 disciples (حواريون from Peshitta Aramaic ܚܘܪ & ܚܒܪ meaning white/companion) which everyone IN THE WHOLE WORLD who knows anything about it will know from Lukeman 10:1. I think you just need to do some deeper research and find out what the REAL term for the 12 Apostles is in Malay. Or you can be an enemy of the truth if you like. Seek knowledge and do not spread falsehood. Be thankful to Allah when truth and clarification comes to you. Salaamu aleikum wa rahmatullah.81.103.121.144 10:42, 9 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Too bad for you then, if you look at this English-Malay dictionary page and click "Kamus Bahasa Inggeris", you'll see that the first entry (twelve) has this to offer:

Twelve   adj & n 1. (cardinal number) dua belas: the ~ apostles of Christ, dua belas orang hawari Nabi Isa;

See there? Twelve apostles = dua belas orang hawari. What's more real than a dictionary? ...Aurora... (b) 12:21, 9 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Don't stop there, tell me what does the dictionary say about the etymology of the word Hawari? Be honest 81.103.121.144 23:52, 9 Mac 2011 (UTC)

And if it is a purely Malay article about Apostles, then why does it relate the word to the Arabic word for Isa's disciples? Can we have a little logical consistency here please?81.103.121.144 00:05, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Provide reference, no personal opinion. The translation is according to official dictionary. Your problem is you try to interpret/confuse meaning to other language. Yosri (bincang) 00:12, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Please do not revert without concrete reference or you will be treated as vandal. Any question, pose them first. The word Hawari in Malay is different from English/your definition, however as this is bahasa Melay Wiki, Malay take precedent. Yosri (bincang) 00:00, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

So when you can't answer a question you censor the person posing the problem as a vandal? Hmm nice example of democratic free society NOT! I gave the etymology and the references above if you have been involved in this discussion AT ALL you would have seen. You clearly know NOTHING about the Quran. SEEK KNOWLEDGE! I am TOTALLY happy to accept that the Malay word means Apostle not Disciple but then in that case you must remove all reference to Hawariyun in the article, or if you choose to put in a section on Etymology then you must include reference to the Aramaic and the fact that it originally meant the 72 companions of Isa and only in Malay it came to mean Apostles. All I am asking for is a liottle logical consistency.81.103.121.144 00:05, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Provide reference, no personal opinion. The translation is according to official dictionary. Your problem is you try to interpret/confuse meaning to other language. Yosri (bincang) 00:12, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

And Hawari is not an English word, it is an Arabic word. Or are you pretending that it is a pure Malay word? Who is the one spreading falsehood?81.103.121.144 00:07, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Dont confuse Google translation that use Indonesia terms for some Malay translation. And don't imagine you are god to determine who or what I am accountable. As far as I concern you just full of hot air unable to give support for all your claims. Yosri (bincang) 23:17, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

صم بكم عمي فهم لا يرجعون81.103.121.144 01:59, 11 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Provide reference, no personal opinion. The translation is according to official dictionary. Your problem is you try to interpret/confuse meaning to other language. Yosri (bincang) 00:12, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

And your problem is you can not understand what you read here.81.103.121.144 00:14, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Provide reference to which part I do not understand. Do not put in your personal opinion. Provide reference, preferable official Malay one.) You got the whole Internet world to look for reference. If it is not there, then it is simply your personal opinion. Provide fact not emotional. Yosri (bincang) 00:20, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Absolute Munafikun, 21 references to Hawariyun (the 72 disciples) as used in Islam and you are trying to say that the Malay meaning (Apostle) is the true and original meaning?!?!?! Astagfirullah. Get a new dictionary!!! Otherwise if this article is about Hawari and NOT Hawariyun then remove all 21 references. 81.103.121.144 00:21, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Are you a Muslim? Logic is the only reference we need. Nevertheless I gave the references above. AND they are already in the article. Astaghfirullah.81.103.121.144 00:23, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Are You? Islam say "When new come from munafikin, verify them first." Wikipedia say "Verifiability". Yosri (bincang) 00:30, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

The islamic standard of verifiability is based upon HAQ 9fact), reasoning, logic, rational thinking and faith in the word of Allah (SWT) But the non-believers will follow the words of Jimbo Wales (founder of Wikipedia) instead. Let me remind you that in the last days writing will be widespread and knowledge will be vast, but ignorance will be more widespread because people will refuse to reflect. I am accused of being emotional because I am defending the ways of our deen instead of the ways of Jimbo Wales who'se organisation spreads falsehood. If you calmdown and read the article you will realise it is INTENTIONALLY trying to confuse the 12 Apostles with the 72 Hawariyun (the 72 disciples of Nabi 'Isa SAW). I am a Hawari, I am NOT an apostle (rasool). Do me a favour, type Apostle into Google translator and translate it into Malay, you will see it translates it as Rasool, not Hawari. It is the most commonly used dictionary IN THE WORLD. Is that not a good enough dictionary for you? فلولا تذكرون? 81.103.121.144 10:28, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Like I say, personal opinion not counted. You can go ahead using Google translation, which you should know have poor translation quality. The official dictionary translation is what count. Yosri (bincang) 10:36, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

You will be called to account on the day of Judgement. You know google is more commonly used. Any good translation of Apostle into Malay will translate Apostle as Rasool. Be careful of spreading lies.81.103.121.144 17:45, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

The official dictionary translation is as per title, so do not get emotional. If you not happy with the content, I will try to get the main contributor to review it. You can play your part by providing additional relevant reference. All I say is Malay translation is that, and translation mean translation. So stick to fact, not emotional. Yosri (bincang) 00:30, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

You should definitely get the main contributer back here because this article is an absolute MESS!!!81.103.121.144 01:49, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you do something about it?  Hazard-SJ  ±  02:26, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

I would like to do something about it, but every time I make a start people who have no clear knowledge will come along and undo/revert my attempts. It seems that this is the nature of the Wikipedia Dajjal conspiracy to spread ignorance against knowledge by following the ways of the non believers instead of the ways of Al-Islam. I implore all the muslims on this page to increase their knowledge of the Arabic origins of words in Malay such as Hawari and to return to the pure understanding of these words according to our religion and not to spread falsehood and ignorance.81.103.121.144 12:34, 14 Mac 2011 (UTC)

He already stated his issues, which will be reviewed by appropriate admin. Yosri (bincang) 02:50, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

First of all, I have proved that in Malay, Hawari is about Nabi Isa's 12 followers. I have also said that I'm not debating whether they are called "apostles" or "disciples" in English, this is Wikipedia Bahasa Melayu. So I'm not going to say more about those two things.
Now, you ask about the etymology, that dictionary doesn't provide that, but it does say that hawariun is the plural form of hawari. You are probably right that hawari/hawariun comes from Arabic. I'm not going to claim my Arabic is as good as my Malay and state what the original meaning of hawari is. The important point is, a word doesn't necessarily carry it's meaning across the language border. Checkout this article if you wish. Another example is the word rasul you keep mentioning, in Malay this means prophet, or messenger, i.e. Isa himself. ...Aurora... (b) 11:21, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

You are not only poorly educated on the matter but you are too arrogant to admit when you have made a mistake. Your arrogance alone also makes you into either a liar or a Munafik (unless you accept your mistake now that it has been pointed out to you) because everyone can see the Arabic at the beginning of the article which means the article does indeed intend to say that the Malay word Hawari is from the Arabic plural Hawariyun. The article makes this even more clear by using Quranic and other Islamic references which are all originally in Arabic and refer to Al-Hawariyun. 81.103.121.144 17:45, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

First of all, the basic thing that I want to ask you, where did you get the no of 72 that you claimed it before? According to Gospel Luke 10:1 and 17 its mentioned that Jesus students is 70!!!!. Can you explain it? Second, actually the number of deciples according to Christianity is not consistent. --Smim90 (bincang) 13:16, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Yes of course I can explain it, I already wrote that I am a Hawari, so of course I have perfect knowledge on all related issues. The King James English translation was the first to publish 70 Hawariyun for Lukeman 10, and all secondary translations (which do not refer back to Lukeman's original Koine language version) repeat this mistake instead of correcting it to 72 Hawariyun. It is because of the King James English translation ALONE that there is a tiny amount of inconsistency among the Christians concerning the number of Hawariyun (70 verses 72). I can also tell you why the King James version did this. Because there has long been a plan to undermine all religions and cause division and conflict and spread ignorance among the believers. It is no secret. People who intend to spread ignorance intentionally obscure the facts. This is also the intention behind Wikipedia. It fulfills some prophesies concerning the 72 signs of the Qiamat which as Muslims you should all be aware of, specifically that before the end, although knowledge will be great and literacy widespread, ignorance will be even more widespread. You can make a choice to either fight the Dijjal and his spreading of lies and ignorance or join him. When a warning comes unto you you can either take heed or ignore it, and everything you do is witnessed and will be brought before you on the day of Judgement. Have you no fear of that day?81.103.121.144 17:45, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Third, I from yr above commentar, you repeatly mentioned about the etymology, I really glad if you can tell me n others what the real definitions and the etymology of hawari, apostle and diciples that you know and want us change in here. thank you.--Smim90 (bincang) 13:16, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Hawari comes from the Arabic حواريون which is etymologically related to the earlier Aramaic ܚܘܪ meaning white and ܚܒܪ meaning study-companion which in Greek is Mathetes (whence derives the word mathematics) and was translated into latin and then English as disciple. The word Apostle is from the Greek Apostolos. It means messenger. One of the miracles of Nabi 'Isa (SAW) is that turned 12 of his 72 Hawariyun into messengers and gave them the ability to speak in many languages. This is why even today the Hawariyun must study many languages to be able to see and preserve the truth. Salaam.81.103.121.144 17:45, 10 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Saya rasa kena berhati-hati menterjemah atau membuat artikel di dalam Wikipedia. Sepanjang saya menyunting saya nampak ada banyak kesalahan fakta dan kesalahan tatabahasa serta ejaan. Admin patut lebih menumpu kepada membaiki fakta dan artikel lebih daripada mencipta artikel-artikel baru. --Kamalzack (bincang) 08:36, 15 Mac 2011 (UTC)

I do not wish to participate further in this discussion, seeing that you keep attacking people. You don't find truth that way. I also find it weird that you keep quoting the Bible but accusing others as non-believers of Islam. To summarise my position, you are welcomed to add a section explaining the etymology of the word, provided you can do so in Malay and include relevant sources. You are not however welcomed to 'correct' the article, leave that to a Malay speaker. ...Aurora... (b) 03:30, 16 Mac 2011 (UTC)

I am not wrong to attack the enemaies of truth. And Wikipedia by its own intention is an enemy of truth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth

That is simply not Islamic. And FYI, neither is Tahrif Mr.Aurora sir, it is not a problem to call someone a Munafik, but it is a big problem to say they are not Muslim.81.103.121.144 12:40, 16 Mac 2011 (UTC)

Ingin kepastian

Salam sejahtera. Saya lihat Hawari mengikut istilah Kristian merujuk kepada "12 pengutus (messenger)", jadi pautan Wikipedia bahasa Inggeris sepatutnya "en:apostle (Christian)" bukan "en:disciple (Christianity). Disciple rasa saya lebih sesuai diterjemahkan sebagai "pengikut". 115.134.39.22 09:52, 3 Disember 2013 (UTC)

Dalam BM, istilah Hawari merujuk kepada 12 orang itu. Jadi saya setuju dengan Apostle (Christian). ...Aurora... (b) 10:19, 3 Disember 2013 (UTC)

Sekejap. Ada lagi satu pautan iaitu en:Disciples of Jesus in Islam. Jadi rencana ini lebih merujuk kepada pandangan Islam atau Kristian?

Done. Regret for any error. Yosri (bincang) 12:46, 3 Disember 2013 (UTC)